Introduction\n
\nMy name is Chris Grant. I'm an ex lawyer, ex legalops, ex law-tech. So I established the Barclays law-tech Eagle lab, and I work with startups, law firms, and in-house legal teams on how to do things better.
My name's Stéphanie Hamon. I am not a lawyer, but I've been working in the legal industry for over 20 years. And I've been working both in private practice, law firm side and on the client side, always around how to make business more efficient and applied business principle and financial discipline to running a business. And now I've become the head of Legal Operations Consulting at Norton Rose Fulbright and we help legal departments be a strategic business partner.
\nPart 1: Defining “change”\n
\nSo why is it so difficult to break through and implement any change? And by that, I mean, not just technology. So I hate it when people always think innovation is all about tech. So change in a role in the legal industry, what, first couple of reasons, human being by default, isn't wired to like change. So our brain doesn't like change and it's even truer. That's been a lot of studies done that the legal industry and lawyers in particular, don't like change and nobody likes getting out of their comfort zone. And that's why I think there's so much talk and noise around change management. Nobody really knows what that is really, but it's all about helping with adoption. It's all about explaining to people. It's not about changing for the sake of changing, but changing to make things better.
Also, if you think of as an, as an industry, we have just thrown solutions at problems and we've not made “change” a program. So everything's been a project and we've just, here's a new piece of software off you go use it. And everybody that implemented that project just vanishes. So we've also not built this culture of continual improvement and continual change. So change is a big thing as opposed to it just being a way of life and legal is probably one of the worst.
\nFor me, the main challenge is often, we don't articulate what's in it for me. So as a question, as an individual, there's often a lot of rationale around why at a company level problem, a department level you might drive the change, but often you don't take it down to the individual level. What's in it for me? Why should I change my habits? And I think that's one of the key trick. If you've managed to answer that question almost at an individual level, then that moves a challenge.
\nPeople, process, and technology, the kind of the three linchpins of anything that you want to do. And that's, that's not just within legal that's “change” because it's the three things that you want to make sure that you've got a handle on.
\nYou're looking at these because you want to drive efficiencies. You want to do things in different ways. And if you don't understand the core elements of each of those, then you're already setting yourself up for a fail. You've got people that you need to enforce that change with, or at least take on that journey. So they understand it, but you also need to understand their needs and their requirements, which leads also therefore into that process piece. Cause they're also already following a process and you are probably about to change it. But also if you're not looking holistically at that process and understanding how change is going to fit within that and where those improvements can sit. You're again not therefore sure that you're putting the right improvement in place and technology is a nice bolt on, on the side of that. It's not the solution to everything. And actually what you're talking about when it comes to change is changing one of those three things, pulling one of those three levers to bring in efficiency, to do things in a different way, because you're going to save money or you going to do things in a faster way, but they're all interlinked. So you ignore one and you've caused a problem later on down the line.
\nPart 2: The power of data\n
\nIt has been a trend in the last, I'd say maybe 18 months, two years where we now talk about people, process, data, and technology. And that's a very welcome addition. This is an industry that is data rich, but has never used it. And we’re finally getting into mining that web of information and it's not data just for the sake of data is really to derive insight and to make informed decision. So that big element of data is a new trend, which is great to see which actually then again, links to technology. This technology really enables you now to capture the data in a structured way to be able to use it. So in that sense, technology is a great enabler.
There's a reason we talk about these things in that order - people, process, data, technology because technology should always come last. And where we see most organizations fail is they jump to the solution and they buy the technology, they plug it in and they're thinking it's going to solve everything when actually they haven't gone through the steps before. And that's where they fail.
\nPart 3: The importance of business relationships\n
\nWhy are business relationships important in that context? First there's, there's a number of stakeholders you need to be looking at. Legal isn't an island, a legal department is here to support an organization and then a strategy and delivering through its objective. So if you don't have this relationship as a legal department and here, I'm talking in-house, so you were disconnected from what it is you need to deliver. And therefore it's really hard to add value because you might be actually focusing on the wrong stuff. So it's really important to have those relationships, to be able to be in the room when the decisions are being made, when plans are being shaped. So you can influence it in the right way, but also then you can deliver against what is expected of you.
So if you want to be positioned as an in-house team, as a strategic business partner, you can't do that in a vacuum without having the relationship with the business. But I'd say as a legal department, you need to pick up all of those stakeholders. So HR can be a great help, to help you hire people, in an environment where usually you're being asked to not hire people. Finance, because that's all about the budgets and money. You need to have good relationships with those people in order to set the budget. Procurement is another big one. IT, in particular, in the context of talking about innovation, you need to have all of those relationships. And on the law firm side it's, it's the same really. You work in an ecosystem. So can’t just operate in an isolation. The business relationships are really important. And the main bridge we're hearing between in-house team and law firm is that they feel their law firms don't understand them as a business and they're not commercial enough. And again, all of that, I mean, relationship, is all about communication. That communication is two way street. You need to have more people talking and for an industry that is based around words, I'm always surprised by how little people actually talk the real talk.
\nI think there's also a piece in there in terms of, we think about technology and implementing new technologies and building business cases around why you want to implement new things for an in-house legal team. We're not in a position that we can necessarily go out with a credit card and start buying tech left, right and center. You need to build business cases around it and make sure you're articulating what return on is going to be often a big part of that equation is missed, which is you have to also get the business on board cause they could become your biggest supporters. And actually if you want to jump the queue to get investment in technology, having them support you to do that is a big win.
\nBecause if you can demonstrate that you'll be able to deliver services more effectively, more efficiently for them at a lower cost because ultimately those costs will go back to them in some way, shape or form, recharges, however it's going to work. If you've got that engagement with the businesses that you support, then you're able to build better, bigger, stronger business cases, which you will then pass through far quicker because you've got that engagement of more than just a cost center to make it happen.
\nPart 4: LegalTech much ado about nothing?\n
\nIs LegalTech much ado about nothing? I think that is something that changes over time because as we evolve and LegalTech evolves, it becomes more of a something, but it's taking us some time to get there. And sometimes there is tech that comes forward, which isn't necessarily law-tech or LegalTech. That is, in isolation, great and it's interesting, but it's maybe workflow or it's actually document generation or something that is not necessarily LegalTech. It can be much ado about nothing, but what is very much ado about something is the fact that it's going to drive efficiencies, it’s going to change the way we work and that's what needs to happen.
Client demands are changing. Law firms need to change the way that they're operating. They need to expand beyond just providing typical, low legal services. Find ways of doing things more effectively and more efficiently in-house legal teams tasked with exactly the same thing. We have to be more effective, more efficient and find smarter ways of working. If you're not thinking about LegalTech, you're missing a trick and I'd love to see where you're going to be in five years' time.
\nWhat I'd say though, is that the much ado about nothing? I used to get really frustrated, like I'd go to conferences or to webinars or seminars, whatever it felt like everyone was doing big stuff, like rolling out a big piece of steak and huge program and it was always successful. It was a massive impact and there was never a problem. Like it was running like a charm, no, you know, nobody kind of pulling back. They would have the budget, you know, everything would be on time and stuff. The reality is when you scratch the surface and you start talking to people and you realise actually there weren't that many big stuff being done. And the ones that were being done were full of problems. So I think as an industry, what LegalTech has taught us is to be comfortable with failure, but learning from failure and then taking it forward. So that's been really helpful.
\nPart 5: Navigating the LegalTech jungle\n
\nSo more firms are creating consistency around legal ops and take, of course I will have a bias to answer that question because I have set up myself for consulting, in, in a law firm, there is a need there's no to question about it. And my own experience over the last two years building this business has just proven to me that my business case was right and sound. There is a need to help an in-house team navigate what is a broad spectrum. And, and I think here, you almost need to distinguish the legalops and, and LegalTech. They go hand in hand because tech supports everything else you do. You've got very few outfits that can advise you on both, but with legal tech, people have to appreciate that when you are an in-house lawyer or an in-house team, you are being approached by a cast of thousands, trying to sell you their product. And they're really good and they really believe in their tool and they will give you great demos. And at some point it's really hard to see the wood from the tree.
So actually having those consultants can be a really good thing for tech companies, because what we see a lot of is clouds up and gone through the steps of clearly defining the problem and the requirement that jumps into solution because they will have been completely blown over by a demo, they buy the tool, they implement the tool, tears later, they're really annoyed with this. It doesn't work. It doesn't do what it's supposed to be doing. And then they stop giving the tool a bad reputation. It has got nothing to do with the tool. It's all about the tool, not being the right one for their problem. So having an intermediary and consultant that can help refine the problem, define the requirement and help select among what is a really broad area of, of options can be really helpful because then you're sure to have a good matchmaking in a way. Yeah, we're matchmakers.
\nWell would add to that is actually from an in-house perspective, being able to access a law firm that got their consulting business that is experiencing more in-house legal ops teams than, than we are that, then coming with a, we know what works because we've seen it. We can see what best practice or worst practice looks like and help you to avoid all of that. It accelerates, for us that experience in terms of being able to get to a good, fully functioning legal operations team, you're able to help to get to a fully in-house legal ops team faster by learning from the mistakes of others, which you bring to the table in a consolidated way so it makes it makes life much easier.
\nI think also, interesting seeing how law tech startups are also understanding, I mean the big thing here is we don't as an industry, we don't know how to change and we haven't successfully done that. And we know that we need to take people on the journey and we therefore need to do a lot more consulting around it. So those startups that are not just startups for those tech companies that are moving forward with legal tech and are stepping into the legal tech space, are spending more time actually doing some consulting and therefore making sure that their product lands well and are learning from their experiences and continuing iterate and like you say, having that relationship with those consultants that are doing that from a law firm perspective is a very valuable relationship.
\nPart 6: The rise of legalops\n
\nYes, legal ops is trending and you see a lot of companies hiring legal ops. If you asked for some of those, it's a bit more of a tick the box exercise, a bit of a FOMO like, oh, everyone else seeming to have a legal ops director I need, I need to get one. For me, legal ops is more a mindset than a role. You know, you don't need to be an international, multinational company to use hundreds of lawyers to apply legal ops. It’s really around business principle, financial discipline applied to a legal function. And I see, I see that almost as two sides of the same coin.
If you think about the role of an in-house team, on one side, it's about managing risk and that everyone knows, and that's what we've been helping an in-house team to do for a long time. But when you're an in-house lawyer, the other side of the coin is being that strategic business partner. And you don't do that by just giving legal advice. You need to manage your function like a business, and you need to shape the strategy of your organization that contributes to it. And all of that has been done through a different skill set. And the training of lawyers, unfortunately, doesn't really help with that skill set. And that's why I think you see the trend and the rise of legal ops, because how do you go about implementing tech and the project management side of things and the selection of a tech company? It’s a very different skill set from putting a budget together to looking at resourcing requirements to managing a panel, but all of the skill set exists. And that's why I say that and there starts now being a bit more methodology and tools out there that all have to be customized, but even if you're a small company and we work with start-ups, scale-ups who have like, eight people. I even work at the moment with GCs who are the sole person in the legal function, all the way to multinational companies with thousands of lawyers. And they all benefit from adopting a legal ops mindset and approach. So I'd say the modern function we'd have these as part of how the function is being run, but it doesn't need to be an individual in particular. It's about having these as part of your DNA.
\nLegal's bringing more people in from outside of legal to come and fulfill that well, because we, as a CRO role matures, the skill set is becoming more defined. And it's clear that there's where typically, and there's nothing wrong with bringing lawyers in to do CRO roles. And I did the night of the job with that, and that wasn't something that I got to do, but, it's, it's a different requirement and there is a different skill set that is needed. And I think that some lawyers do lend themselves quite nicely to that. But it's interesting though, seeing how the doors are opening up to bring people from broader industry in to develop that role further and see where that then goes. And I think that'll be interesting to see what route that then takes over the next few years.
\nSo I think the future of legal ops is probably to see that becoming part and parcel of the training of the coming lawyers in the industry. What I'd love to be able to see is that when they go through training and law school or whatever country you're in or whatever the pass is, that more of the skillset are being taught early on, or maybe there would be, I don't know, double bachelors or masters or whatever you call them, just to bring some of that into the legal department. And I, I think legal ops is what's going to help build that bridge between legal and the rest of the business, and really have to change the narrative around how legal has been perceived. Luckily it's already started changing, but for too many in-house teams, it's still about being perceived as a cost center, a necessary evil, a bunch of naysayers that hire too many people who spend too much money. Legal ops can really change the narrative towards, I am a strategic enabler. I can really help this organisation I work for deliver with strategy.
\nLegal ops becomes more data-driven as we move forward, because certainly as we're seeing more technology come through, we're capturing more information. We're capturing more data about how we're doing things, how we're managing things, the legal risk element. As we start to use that with more insight, we can do much more as a legal ops tool, as a legal ops function so that we are really maximizing the opportunities, but also taking us outside of traditional legal and the role then of the legal function becomes more because we've got that added layer of insight, which means we're making more informed decisions, but also identifying opportunities that we've not even seen yet in terms of how we can do things different.
\nPart 7: Why LawAdvisor?\n
\nWhy be excited about LawAdvisor? Actually, it's been interesting to follow evolution over the last few years. I remember we first met Brennan where we're still both working at Barclays and he came to show us this tool. And we, we got quite excited because normally when we had tech company come in and pick holes, pick holes in whatever they were saying, and we actually, a couple of them ask us to be on their advisory board because we could have them develop their product roadmap. And we could really see the need of the client to have them deliver their product.
But with Brennan that was quite annoying because every time we said, have you thought about this? He's like, oh yeah, and here it is. And how about, oh yeah, here it is. And it was really also quite a user-friendly interface. A lot of the resistance we'd seen already in our work at the time was adoption from lawyers. And I don't understand, I need a refresher on the training and here the intuitive navigation and all of that was, was really helpful. So that was way back then, and now it's grown and modified.
\nAnd it's been a really exciting journey actually, going from those moments where, and what was great was that alignment that was already there. So everything that we had in our heads in terms of the way we wanted things to work was suddenly there and on a screen with a roadmap to take it further. So why I'm still excited about it now is because they've achieved all of those. And we look at Fibonacci and we look at LegalEye and it fits perfectly and seamlessly into the process that we needed to see happening.
\nCertainly around legal project management and being able to actually run panel management as well. Everything is now there and takes a lot of what we did manually into a full process. Where I get really excited is the way that it's built, because this is just the beginning and it can integrate with everything else that you've got and that you use so that you've got a full seamless front to back it's future-proofed.
\nAny other technology, whether it's something else that LawAdvisor come up with, or whether it's something else that you are currently working with, you can find a way of integrating it. And I think that's the big bit that's missing is we don't have anything that ultimately wraps everything up. They all interplay. And that happens a lot and great, we’re all acknowledging that needs to happen, but something that then wraps it is very rare and thinking about even the data that we're then capturing around all of that and what we can do that. And it's sad, but that's, that's the stuff that I get excited about.
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